Hello, hello, guys, this is Benjamin and welcome to another episode of the BigAppleSchool Podcast, where the goal of the show is to help improve your English listening skills by, of course, listening to us. And today we have three guests. So our first guest today is...
Excellent and a second guest...
And last but not least...
So Ugur is in the house. Welcome back. So, guys, I just need to mention that we have a new format for our podcast, so it's going to be around 40 to 45 minutes. And you can join us on our After Show where you can find the details about the After Show on the telegram chat. So just have a look at telegram and, yeah, follow the instructions there so you can join in on the conversation. So today's topic, we're going to be talking about gender stereotypes. So, it can be a bit controversial, but it's still a really interesting conversation.
You got to tread carefully on this one.
Yes, exactly. "Tread on eggshells" to use an idiom. I think you all know that idiom, yeah? To tread on eggshells.
Exactly, to be careful. Well, let's talk about work. So gender at work. So what jobs... Let's just dive straight into it. What jobs are deemed as appropriate for men but are inappropriate for women in your opinions? Or do you feel that all jobs...
Oh, we are going straight into that. Okay. That's right.
Let's just go straight in.
Well, some people believe that, you know, women are not cut out for certain type of physical jobs. And in this case, you know, would be like miners, loaders, you know, like everything that has to do with some physical experience, yeah. So there used to be some sort of stereotype that women are not cut out for being a pilot which they proved absolutely wrong because now we have more and more female pilots. So, yeah, I personally think that if you can do a job and you can do it well, no, it doesn't matter what your gender is.
I hate to be an airplane nerd, but I love being my... I just a little fat... So back in the old days, when you stop, when you had to steer a plane, it was really heavy sometimes. Maybe it had something to do if that was...now.
We have only joined it, yeah.
Remember during the Second World War there were pilots, lots of pilots who were women and...
And they were great. Yeah. So why not.
They were the pioneers, you know, showing like, "We can do it".
We have a female pilot in Turkey, like around at First World War. And she has, she has one of the pioneers that case. And so it's a female pilot.
And also depends on the type of plane as well. So for instance in...
Oh, Ben is just going into that, okay, we only have 45 minutes, Benjamin. I know you love talking about planes.
Okay, maybe another time we can talk more about planes, but... Okay. Yeah.
Previously, engineering wasn't meant to be for women, but lots of women approved that they are able to do that or I don't know...
Scientists. Remember Marie Curie. Yes. So one of the greatest pioneers, yeah.
You know, we still...So what we have to deal with in this case, it's not what women or men can or cannot do. It's more about the attitude that a lot of females are facing. I have a very good example when it comes to education and work. So I have a friend, stunning. She looks stunning. She has long hair. She's wearing dresses, heels, always makeup, really gorgeous. So and she was attending the courses in the pre-COVID areas. So everything was off line and those courses were in programing. And so and there were some guys like, "Oh, how come you're here?" You know, so what is, what is your job like? What do you do? Are you like a journalist? Are you in humanities?" And she's like, "I create robots for German automobile factories, like BMW and Volkswagen. And they're like, "What now?" And I just love this moment when women kind of like, you know, break the mold when they kind of, you know, like show their, "Hey, stop this condescending looks in everything", like, we can do whatever.
Oh, remember the jokes about, I don't know, women talking about physical engineering or something like that and one they our men approach, they were like, "Okay, let's talk about makeup".
So it's kind of sexist in a way.
The topic that we discussed today it's...
Well it is a sexist topic.
Would you feel safe if a woman was driving the bus? I'm joking.
Speaking about driving. Speaking about driving. Lots of women are more careful drivers. It's proven. It doesn't matter what they drive cars, trucks, whatever. So they can.
Do very often It depends on a person, you know. It doesn't matter what the gender is. Yeah. So but speaking of, you know, like jobs and everything. So you've mentioned Marie Curie, you know, and this is like just one of the people. Well, very few people that we know about. But what is kinda annoying if we look back in history and, you know, in science back in the day when it was supposed to be that, oh, you know, women cannot be good in science. And what makes me so infuriated in a way, is that there were so many situations when women discovered something. But men that they worked with got all the credit and got the Nobel Prize. We've got Jocelyn... What's her name? Jocelyn Bell Burnell. So she's the one who discovered pulsars. We've got... Rosalind Franklin - the DNA helix. We've got Ada Lovelace - computer algorithm. Vera Rubin - dark matter. Lisa Meitner - nuclear fission. So and this just, you know, the beginning of the list. All of these women did something, you know, outstanding. So but they never got credit for that. Instead, the men they worked with all day, like supervisors, their colleagues got Nobel Prizes for all of these inventions and discoveries.
That leads us to our society and where we brought up or we will brought up and where we live nowadays. So it's changing a little, yeah, step by step it's changing. But still we have stereotypes and some jobs are thought to be for men and for women, yeah.
But actually, you know, it goes both ways. So even now, when we believe, you know, like, "Come on, gender stereotypes, we live in 2022". Men who, let's say, are nail techs. They look to at like, "Really, you're a nail tech?" Like, "Why, it's a girl's job". I feel, like, "How? How?". Like, what if I just enjoy, like, doing that? So it kind of goes both ways too.
Yeah. What jobs?.. Yes. You mentioned a nail... I guess you could say "a nail technician". Well, you said "a nail tech". You said.
Yeah, but "a nail technician", we can short it, like "a nail tech", which is actually a good moment because I know that in Russia, a lot of people, when they tried to translate, like "nail masters". We don't say master, like "a nail tech".
That's really good that you mention that, yeah. Because like a lot of use the word "master".
Yeah, I think you can actually. I think you're right. Yeah.
Because the word "master" in Russian, it's kind of, like "one size fits all words". You can use it for hairdressers. You can use it for everything. Exactly. If you use the word "master" in English usually it means...
Yeah. You're on a position of authority, yeah, of authoritative connotations to it.
Yeah. So men. Which jobs would you say are not suited to men or not culturally considered to be suited to men?
OK, teachers in kindergartens?
Usually we can't find men who teach kids.
I mean in the kindergarten. Nowadays there are no men unless they are suppliers. Yeah.
We can say beauticians maybe.
That's, that's also true. Yeah, like nail techs.
Nail techs or beauticians, skin care specialists or whatever. Oh, yeah.
But again, there is like a deep lying reason, you know, historical reason for some reason when men work with kids, they're looked at like, "Why exactly do you have such interests in kids? This is not normal". Who says so? Why is it so? Okay, so you have no questions to dads, but suddenly when a man wants to work in a kindergarten, you have once...
Where is the logic in that?
What's about balance? Because you do have to be careful with kids definitely, like you do, I definitely do think that teachers should have like a very strict vetting, especially if you work with kids. But as long as the teacher can go through all the vetting procedures, I don't see why it should be any...
But yeah, it is still a stereotypical thing that if a man works with kids, probably he is bothered or something because it's not, I don't know, they are nature or something.
Mhm. Maybe some anger management problems. They can be careful with the kids. Well they're just... I don't know.
Yeah. I think it's a good idea to have like if you work with kids, it's just a good idea to have a camera in the classroom. So there's no...
Oh, in general it's a good idea to have a camera because in case there's some sort of misunderstanding, conflict, footage, you know, says it all.
It's always there and you can prove yourself.
And it's kind of, you know, it's safe for both sides.
Yeah, it protects everyone. Yeah. All right. So teachers, beauticians, nurses, I guess. It's becoming more I mean.. a lot of.
Quite many men and women, it's naturally, but men...
Or the russian word is «медсестра».
So "nurse", it's both for men and women in English, but in Russian... So we have, like «сестра» and «брат», yeah.
'Cause the history of Russia, you had the Soviet Union, a lot of men went to war and they died, unfortunately. And a lot of women had to pick up the slack. They had to pick up the jobs that were previously occupied by men.
So this is why, just statistically, we have more women in the industry like, you know, right now. But if you look at other countries, I think there's like basically no difference these days. But what is interesting is that despite the fact that, you know, there are both genders in the medical area, when there is, let's say, a young girl who comes to the patient room, very often, they would hear something like, "Oh, that's okay, I'll wait for the doctor". And they're like, "I am the doctor. I'm not a nurse, I am the doctor".
And this is the second stereotype about age, actually.
Yeah. Lots of people think that younger specialists are not wise and not good enough and...
Not qualified at all. Yes. But...
Well, that's that's another side. Yeah. It's not really about gender, but... Yeah. About the age. Yeah.
Maybe another time we can cover that. I mean I don't know if that's autism. Yeah. I don't know if that will maybe we could do. I dunno. Stereotypes about age.
Well, we actually have had an episode on stereotypes and we covered up stereotypes about age.
I mean like, oh we did do an age's one,.
We've done so many good podcasts.
So definitely guys, our listeners, have a look at our long list of podcasts, which you can find on our website.
But I think if we talk about gender stereotypes in workforce. I think we can't but mention the concept of glass ceiling. So are you familiar with the concept? Yeah. Can you define it for our listeners?
My belief is... I believe is this is how you define... Maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it means that you are... women are given the impression that they can achieve a high authoritative position, but there's this invisible barrier that stops them from achieving.
Going to the very top, basically. Yeah, absolutely. This is what it is. And this term actually first appeared like feminist theory and everything. And what kind of makes me glad is that nowadays this glass ceiling is slowly breaking. You know, it started with, let's say, crack...
Well, it depends on the society.
Obviously. Obviously. I mean, there are still, you know, very patriarchal. How do you see this word? Patriarchal.
So societies. But it's kind of, you know, inspiring to see that nowadays very often there are female CEOs in everything. And I don't know about Russia, but in the US, if you go to Google Map, you can actually see like, "click on a special icon to see which businesses are female owned". And if you want to kind of support, you know, female owned businesses. So it's kind of you know, it makes me, makes me glad that there seem to be less and less, you know, like difference maybe, or like stigma or something between male and female CEOs and heads of companies and everything.
That's a good tendency that we're holding on.
I hope one day we won't have that female or male business or whatever profession to have just... Yeah. Profession for a person, whatever gender you are. Yeah.
Well, let's move on to the military. So in Israel, as you might know, they have a conscription the draft for both men and women. So most countries that have the draft, the military draft, meaning that you get called up for military service, this only applies for men. Do you think that countries that have the military draft should call up women?
I think that people should have a choice.
Like the way it is in the US. You want to go in the military? It's not. There's no, like, necessary draft or something.
Let's say like Brazil, for instance. Brazil, they have they have a mandatory military service. Let's... We're not talking about like whether you want to join it or not. Do you think that if you have a mandatory draft, that would you think Brazil should mandate women to join as well?
That's a tricky one. But, you know, I believe... If we look at Israel. A lot of people there, you know, they're glad that both men and women go through that because it makes you, well, let's say, a tougher person and everything. But I think if that is implemented and if, you know, women are called up and everything for military service, it should be organized and well thought of. Because, unfortunately, we still have a lot of cases of like crime happening over there.
So solve these problems or don't make it happen.
But... And again, in Israel, it's like three years service.
I think for men is three years, two years for women. I think it's like that.
I think if it was like a year, that would be more bearable. Oh, you know. But yeah, but I believe that people should have a choice like they do in the US. Military is like, you want to go into the military, you go.
And do you think women should be allowed to go on to the front line of a conflict?
The wars that we'd had. Yeah. So they showed that they can.
Yes, Kate said, in the United States Army, I guess they saw in front line in Afghanistan, I guess, like the medic or like the corporals, or like the surgeons. Staff surgeons, yeah. So female soldiers were kind of in the combat in action.
Yeah, it's a whole, yeah, it's a big, huge debate that's all over YouTube and all over the Internet.
Nowadays there are quite many women in military service, yeah. But they are mostly, what they are mostly in the medical.
Yes. And maybe supply. Yeah.
Yeah. Logistics. Yeah. Something like this. And this is good that there are women and they, I don't know, they collaborate with men in charge... But it could have... Could have been better.
Well, I guess nowadays we have more modern warfare, so you don't really need to get yourself involved in hand-to-hand combat, like, perhaps you would have had to do in the Second World War, for instance. So maybe the need for strong men. Well, you still need strong soldiers.
Well, absolutely. You know, being a soldier requires a lot of physical strength, you know. So... Yeah, obviously.
And mental strength, yeah.
Some people say that women are stronger. They are... I mean...
I guess women have to go through a lot of painful events in life.
Well, every month I couldn't imagine that.
They say that women can endure more pain. More physical pain.
Yeah. And, you know, perhaps you are right, actually, because women are more accustomed to it. Whereas, yeah, I mean, not everyone gives birth, but I could never imagine...
Oh my God, have you seen the experiment? So nowadays there is this sort of... like a tool, a something.
Yeah. A birth simulator that can give a man a chance...
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they have like a scale from 1 to 10 and the same with like not only the birth simulator, but the period of pain. Yeah. And, you know, there was like, you know, I, I saw this video. I found a hilarious because it was a guy and he's like, "I cannot bear it any more. Please turn it off". And they looked at a girl like, "How you doing?" She's like, "I would be fully functioning, going on to work, out and working, you know what she talking about? It's just like a two out of ten or three out of ten". He's like, "No, it's not". Just like... Do you want to feel what a ten feels like?
Would you give it go for it? Would you like try it?.
No. Personally don't want to do that, too. Yeah.
Kudos to you guys. So, right.
How how does it work? This simulator? Do they have, like, a belts which they use around the waist.
Yeah, it's something like that.
Just like electrons or...
Electrodes, yeah, yeah. This this sort of thing.
I think it stimulates the back belly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. All this, like to lower up.
Do we have one in Novosibirsk?
I'm not sure what they have like... So, yeah.
Maybe in Moscow. I don't know. For Moscow listeners, let us know if you found a birth simulator.
Yeah. Anyway, so moving away from birth simulators, do you believe that there are any gender roles that should be taught to people from a young age? Or do you feel that people should just grow up to be..?
Leave them alone. Leave the kids alone. Yes, leave the kids. Yeah.
You know, it's... Again, I'm happy to see that it's kind of, you know, this sort of tendency is dying out that, oh, you know, women cannot run the show in the family, you know, so they should be the housekeepers, the cook, like, responsible for cooking and everything. Well, you know what? No. I, for example, I grew up in a family where everything was shared.
So, let's say, my dad was cooking, my mom was cooking. Whoever had the time, you know, did the thing, did the chores and everything. It did not matter at all. Like, you know, whether that was my mom, or my dad.
I didn't complain about it, right?
Absolutely not. It was just, you know, like...
Way of living in a real regular way of living. Yeah.
You communicate, you decide, you know, who's going to do what and everything.
Yeah. Our parents grew up in families where the gender roles were important, still important, but when we were born... So it changed tremendously, I think. Yeah. Because my grandma told me stories from her childhood and from her youth or when... it was really, I don't know, really important to follow some of, I don't know, moral.
The social norms. Yeah, yeah, right.
Well, yeah. But the society and the world is changing. So earlier it used to be, you know, what not just totally fine. It was the norm that a man is the breadwinner. So he's the one who brings the money, you know, and everything and supply, and support, you know, financially the family. Woman is the one who gives birth, keeps the house, you know, clean and everything cooks and everything. That was just the way it was. Now, we are not limited. We do not have to have a family if we don't want to, so we can choose whatever we want to be.
How you feel yourself more comfortable.
Absolutely. So I think since our society is changing, we don't need these gender norms. Well, you know, like role models anymore. Absolutely not.
What about clothing? Do you feel that..? Well, tell me what you think.
Sorry. But same thing, like, why? You know what since.. I'm sorry if I've taken too much time of the podcast. There is a story, you know, when it comes to gender stereotypes and everything. So I saw a video of this girl. She has a daughter. The daughter is like two, three years old or something. So which means that the only way to recognize the gender of this baby is by clothing. And she said, "What I've noticed is that when my daughter's wearing jeans and everything and she's running around and people think she's a boy, they say, "Oh, look at you, you're so fast. You're so strong". Because they think that's a boy. But when she's wearing dresses, everyone, all the compliments she gets is, "Oh, look at you. You look so cute. You're so beautiful".
In this nice dress. Such a princess. She's like, "Oh, my God". This gender stereotypes are, you know, kind of bombarded on our kids when they're still babies. Like, why? So...
Do you think there's any healthy elements of gender stereotypes? Do you think there's any good sides to it?
There was definitely. But nowadays, as the society developed, the economy developed and the boundaries somewhere are faded a little, yeah. So...
I guess technology has changed a lot of things.
I think that stereotypes kinda limit the freedom, so...
You can do this, you can't do this in a way. Limiting you, you know?
Before that was the question of survival. Yeah. Housekeeping for women and...
Breadwinning for the men...
Yes. I wanted to say about mammoths. Yes. But anyway, the same...
But there are some... Sometimes it gets to... Let's bring it the more controversial point. So bathrooms. Do you feel that there should be separate bathrooms for men and women?
I would say yes. I guess, yes. Because of the hygiene.
I think most importantly.
And you know, I love the way it is done in the US. So because there are men bathroom, women bathroom and gender neutral bathrooms, which are for one person.
So and I believe that sometimes people do not feel comfortable. Well, let's say we still have non-binary people. They do not identify as men and women. So for them, for example, they wouldn't feel comfortable. Or, let's say, sometimes there are, let's say, women who, you know, have short haircuts and they are very often perceived as men and they're like, you know, "I'm sorry, this is the women's bathroom". And they're like, "I am a woman". And sometimes they just want to, you know, just spare all that. Yeah. And just go to like a gender neutral bathroom or something like that.
Well, I guess the reason why the separation exists is because there are some bad people in the world. You can't really...
Yeah, there have always been...
Sexuality can't be avoided a lot of the time. And and yeah, I think it's because of sexuality the reason why.
You know, what's interesting about bathrooms?
And coming back, you know, for a second about gender roles and everything. Have you ever noticed that there are baby changing stations in women's bathrooms?
Family bathrooms, but not men's bathrooms. So society kind of tells us what they... who they think should be taking care of the baby. And that's another stereotype.
But there are so many men who look after their kids.
Not only just one day. Yeah. But for I don't know...
I mean they take paternity leaves, yeah. Like paternal leave.
And it's not only about European countries, it's about Russia as well. I know one guy who took a paternity leave just because of some financial matters. Because he...
You know what's fun, though, when these guy... Well, again, about the praise they get, they're like, "Oh my God, you took your baby to a doctor and everything. Good for you".
"You're a great father. You're a great guy".
This is just called "parenting people". Like, come on, don't praise the bare minimum. But another side is that I recently read a story where a guy took a baby to a doctor and everything and they're like, "Where's the mom?" He's like, "At work. So I'm taking baby to a doctor, like a checkup and everything". And she just started, you know, like, "Oh, you don't know how to hold a baby. Oh, you're not. You can't do this". And she was so annoyed and I say like, "What's the matter?" So and she just she just told him something like, "Well, I can't do it right now. Just come back with the mom of the baby". And he's like, "What the hell?" Like, what sort of like, biased attitude. Yeah
Yeah, she thought that mother can take care of baby better than...
Like, what the... why? Come on. It's very strange situation. Yeah. I wonder what the woman would have said if he had said something like, we're a same sex couple, so we went to a family of two dads. She would be like...
But we talked about bathrooms, and I guess we all kind of agree that there should be some separation for the reasons that we've explained. What about prisons? Do you think that men and women should be in the same prison block?
Same reason. Same reason. The crime, the abuse, the rape. No, it's too dangerous.
What about if someone decides to change the gender? Do you think that..? That's a tricky one.
Because if you go to prison you're not exactly a law abiding.
Treading on thin ice over here. Yeah. This question has brought up so much debate in the US and has been, you know, discussed for like years now. So that's a tricky one.
I'd be my first... I would just say, unfortunately, no, you can't mix genders in prisons because of there's going to be so much violence. And it's...
Unfortunately like that. But you can house people in different parts of prisons, I guess. So if someone is...
Like private cells or kind of...
Yeah, maybe not solitary confinement, but a special wing of the...
But not in the general population, yeah?
Yeah, because it can cause big problems.
I remember this point was kind of a not discussed but shown in a TV show "Orange is the New Black".
Yeah, it's about women's prison. And there was a girl who was like a transgender. And first of all, there was a lot of violence towards her, like, "You're not a real woman", and everything. So it kind of showed, you know, different sides of that. So, yeah, what it's like to be a transgender in a prison. So it's rough.
Yeah, prison is rough anyway, so...
It was like, adds another, like, whole new level to it.
Yeah. I think prisons, it just has to be a separate part of society because if you go to prison, usually you've done something bad. Not always. Not necessarily always. But usually you have. So I think we have to separate genders in prison. Well, let us know what you think. So. Anyway. Let's think what else we can talk about.
We talked about that a little bit. But, tell me...
What do you think? What would you think if I came in with a skirt?
Okay, so you know what? It's very interesting because I've discussed this topic with my students. Just, you know, this week I've had several classes on the topic. So if we think about, let's say, the thirties, the thirties, women were not allowed to wear suits. We're not allowed to wear trousers. Marlene Dietrich was actually arrested in Paris for wearing a suit. So when she did that, you know, that caused real backlash. Since then, things have changed. So now we, women, can wear whatever we want, but not men. So and this why are the, you know, these double standards. Girls are wearing jeans, men's clothing, whatever style. If a man puts on a skirt or a dress, oh my God, he's like mentally sick or something. To hell with that. And I really love saying that there are a lot of people now who are kind of, again, breaking this mold. Like, if you feel... I personally believe that if you can pull it off, whatever, the hell, you want.
I guess we are a little bit far away from just changing our minds as men. Then the women are open more than men. No way, I guess. Right.
Nowadays the girls wear whatever they...
Just because they had to fight for that and men, they didn't have to fight for that. And they actually...
Because we never been in that kind of situation before.
So that's why nowadays, so not in many minds that thought appears. And so that's why there is no kind of wave to change that.
But I can see, you know, like little by little, step by step. So a lot of guys I know, they get their nails done now. At first it was considered to be like there was a lot of stigma towards it, you know, an alternative way... Oh, so but you know, it started with little things like earrings, get your nails done, some accessories, you know, so and it's getting, you know, they get more and more freedom not in Russia sometimes when it comes to clothing.
Artistic people. So they show trends.
Adorable photoshoot when he wears a dress that... Oh my goodness, it looks so beautiful.
It's another side like, let's say, when Harry Styles was... He was on the cover of Vogue last year, like two years ago, and he was the first man to ever be a solo on the cover of Vogue. Until that moment, man had only appeared on the cover of Vogue with women. But the thing is that he was wearing a dress. So. And that girl...
Might have been. But the thing is that they caused a huge backlash and people like, "Oh, well, too bad he didn't make it on the cover of Vogue not wearing a dress". And he had an interview about that. And he's like, "I'm more about like comfort,.. Style, you know, I don't want to shut out...". Comes with a name, you know. So he was just saying, like, "I don't want to shout out the whole world of, like great clothes and everything. Like, "if I can wear what I want, why not do that?"
But he's so stylish. Yeah. He's like...wow.
So, yeah. I mean, I love the way it is done in the US. Because in there, you wear whatever you want. People will not look twice at you. It doesn't matter, you know, it's all you... It's your freedom.
Japan is one of the representative of if we talk about Tokyo. Yeah. So in the center of Tokyo, Akihabara or other districts. Yeah. So where the cosplayers walk, where there are so many. My goodness. So there is I thought... there is one account on Instagram and people used to like take photo shoots or for the couples they see what they just to be a solo of representatives not the cosplayers just... Sometimes fashion designers, sometimes the people who just like to be extravagant. Yeah, who just like to show off a little. Yeah.
I believe that we should just give people the freedom. You want to wear a dress - go for it. You don't want to - don't.
How would you define, a more basic question: how would you define masculinity and femininity?
That's not a basic and a simple question, I think.
Basic, but also very deep. Paradoxically deep, quite.
That's not a question I would have an answer to, because every person has both femininity and masculinity in them, which has shows in different ways. Not necessarily clothing or actions, or something. But, you know, for some reason, we also have some sort of, well, a belief that feelings are gendered. And when a man cries, they're like, "Oh, that's femininity in you". No, that's processing, that's feelings. And it's okay to have feelings like, stop it. So, yeah.
Yeah. Typical thing. Men don't cry. Yeah.
And that's fine. So way, Benjamin, what do you think on the topic?
I would say femininity... If we have to define it in terms of like essential nature, I would say it's more like wind and water. Whereas masculine...
Is more like earth and fire. Maybe, maybe not fire, I guess. Maybe femininity is more like fire, wind and water whereas.
Could you please elaborate on what you mean?
So. Well, females tend to have more estrogen and men tend to have more testosterone. What do these two hormones have? What is estrogen? It allows your emotions to flow more and emotions... It's a neutral thing. It's not positive or negative.
It's biology. What is testosterone? I guess maybe...
Yeah. So perhaps both of these, all these elements are required. You need these elements to complement one another. And... If you take one away from the of they kind of falls apart. Yeah.
I would define femininity as esthetics over masculinity. So whatever they have is more esthetic than we have. So that's why most of the time when a man wears a dress, doesn't look good. Because it's not esthetic, you know.
Unless it's a kilt, you know like the Scottish kilt.
Well again when it comes to clothing and everything, you know, there are a lot of debates like long Greek Gods wore like, you know, dresses and Greeks wore dresses, and togas, and whatever. Yeah. So, yeah.
But there's no such thing as 100% masculine male. And there's no such thing as 100% feminine woman. Because you have... you have your base. Your base. So you're either more well, you're born either with a willy or with, you know what. But you could be a more effeminate male or a more masculine woman. And sometimes people are born hermaphrodites. And they have to, you know, they have both.
I think it's more about, like, how you act, how you feel personally. .
Yeah. And I don't think anyone should restrict people necessarily if they don't want to... But that's the objective thing we can take away from it is, yeah, let people do what they want to do.
According just the law. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Within. Within reason. All right. Well, I think that's coming up to 40 minutes, so we're going to leave it there, but we're going to have The After Show, like I said at the start of the podcast. So definitely check out the details on the telegram chat and we're going to speak more on this subject and you guys can participate with us. So don't forget to check out our website which is www.BigAppleSchool.com where you can find more interesting podcasts, videos and more information about the courses we offer here at the school. And also be sure to check out our social media platforms, including Telegram, VK, etc. So that's it for today, guys. I was Benjamin, Ur, Katya and...